Greetings from England!
I am new here, so hope you don't mind me asking a few technical questions that someone may be able to help me with?
A bit of a background:-
I used to work for a local circuit board manufacturing company whereby we had a faulty ProTrack which I was allowed to take home to repair & use, I think at the time I replaced a DC-DC converter. It was very useful for finding problems in some of the vintage studio & broadcast audio equipment like master tape recorders that I restore in my spare time. On leaving the company I was hoping they would forget about the ProTrack so it could be 'liberated', but sadly they wanted it back....
Anyways, I was a bit lost without it but can never afford a working unit & spotted one of these Ex-Navy 'KJ3' units that I thought would do the job as I will only ever use it stand alone really.
The fault I have is that it works okay until I try to save something like changing the LCD contrast etc. whereupon it will just lock up & destroy the firmware on the Flash - it then has to be re-flashed in my programmer.
If I bend my Pin 1 (VPP) up on the Flash, & earth it to pin 16 with a bit of wire, it then goes through the motions of writing without knackering the firmware, but obviously doesn't save anything.
I have found a really odd fault, not sure if it's 'the' fault; but when saving there is a relay to provide 12V to pin 1 when writing. I'm not sure if it's right as when writing this relay does bursts of about 85ms on & 10ms off, the bursts are about 3sec on & 1sec off – is it supposed to do this?
Then there is a physics bending thing going on..... This relay contacts stick together after a few bursts for no reason I can think of! The only 'load' after the contacts is a 0.1uf cap. & a 10K resistor to ground. I have tried 6 relays now of different makes & forms & they all do it. A thwack with a screwdriver handle releases the contacts – the relays should be good for 1ms going by the data, so completely clueless on what's going on here....
Can anyone suggest anything as to why the relay is doing this & if it's supposed to pulse during a save please?
Cheers,
Mark...
Hi Trademark-X
You would be far better off with the KJ2 version.
Plus Tech Support (Curtis) may even let you have circuit diagram for this older version.
I have written about this on this Forum.
Dear TRADEMARK-X!
Paula wrote about a similar error. It can be read below.
https://huntron.com/forum/index.php?topic=326.msg1504#msg1504
Paula resoldered the U3 ic and U4 ic pins and the flash save works fine.
Have a nice day!
Hi Fetron,
I have spoken to Paula a few days ago & the fault is not resolved.
I found we were both using P28F001BX-T120 instead of P28F001-B120 as stated in the BOM.
I believe one boots from high ram & the other low - we are not sure if this will make any difference but have both ordered the correct 'B' versions & are just waiting for them - though can't see if it makes any difference...
I am trying to find out what supposed to happen on pin 1 during a save, as I mentioned mine pulses & then the relay goes short for no reason I can think of. I'm trying to find out if anyone else can listen for a pulsing relay sound when saving - it will be very quiet as is reed relay, but I can hear it with the lid off.
Cheers,
Mark...
Hi Jvthorsley,
Well I have the KJ3 now so have to persue it, it is usable just I can't save any changes nor calibrate it.
Cheers,
Mark...
Okay.
Try Catalyst flash ic CAT28F001Pi-12B, or CAT28F001PB-12B, or CAT28F001PA-12B.
Keep ya head up.
Hi Mark,
I did chat with our programmer about this relay circuit but we didn't come up with anything that would be helpful. The engineer who originally designed it moved on a long time ago. When the relay is "stuck" do you still see any power being applied to the activator pins? Maybe there is some noise here or an issue with the Q1 FET or the D66 diode?
Hi Fetron,
'B' version Flash (boots from lower RAM) turned up yesterday, programmed it under 'B' type, popped it in & all is good – I ran the calibration & when plugged into the computer running diagnostics it passed everything! Ace!
Appears; A P28F001BX-Txxx WILL NOT WORK IN THE PROTRACK!
I would still like to fix this weird U42 relay sticking issue on the VPP line to pin 1 of the Flash & am starting to wonder if this has happened on all ProTracks, maybe due to the pulse frequency that the reed relays don't like?
It's certainly weird – not seen anything like it before, it's just got 12V on one end of the contact & the other is through a 10K resistor & 0.1uF capacitor to ground, yet it keeps sticking on!
I have even strapped a 0.1uF cap across the contact in case some RF on the line was causing it, no difference.
I presume this relay is to protect the integrity of the flash when not saving due to surge or power fail etc....
Cheers,
Mark....
Hi Admin,
No, the coil is not energised & continuity can be seen between Flash Pin 1 & 12V rail after power off.
I have to give the relay a thwack to open the contacts again. I just bought 2 Coto relays for £30 - they do the same.... I put a 0.1uF cap across the contacts in case of RF presence but no change.
I may try to set the AWG up to simulate the timings that the ProTrack is hitting the relay with to see if the relays stick outside the instrument. Something funny going on here....
Cheers,
Mark...
You could try testing the relays externally using the ProTrack Pulse Generator in pulse mode. Maybe it will provide additional insight.The pulse frequency will match the ProTrack frequency.
Good idea - I will give it a try, saves setting up the AWG - Cheers!
Hi Admin (Curtis?),
I tried the relay on the ProTrack & was surprised & what frequency it would switch up to - couldn't get it to stick though, nor on the AWG.
I am then again suspecting noise on the 12v rail, but upon checking it doesn't look to bad with maybe 100-200mV of noise riding on top of the DC. The noise looks pretty random, though if I use chassis for scope earth I have a 121Khz pulse of about a volt. I have checked the capacitors on the 12V rail & they look okay & even added some temporarily to see if any change, but just the same really!
I've now got sick of this weird fault now & have decided that the 'fix / bodge' will be to replace the reed relay with a Solid State Relay - looking at putting an Omron G3VM-61 in, should do the trick with nothing to stick!
Everything is otherwise working okay & passes everything in Workstation diagnostics.
Cheers,
Mark...
;D lol, finally someone figured it out on their own. information is gold until its shared. once shared over time gold turns into xxxx.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMnjF1O4eH0
Can anyone with a ProTrack please confirm if they can hear the relay pulse during a save?
You should be able to hear it without opening it - just listen closely to it when saving....
I am trying to establish if it should be doing this or should just close at beginning of save & open again at the end.
Mine pulses, well for a bit anyway until the relay sticks again....
Cheers,
Mark...
[TRADEMARKX@NTLWORLD.COM]
Quote from: Al1234 on July 18, 2023, 12:20:29 AM;D lol, finally someone figured it out on their own. information is gold until its shared. once shared over time gold turns into xxxx.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMnjF1O4eH0
This is relevant how?
I don't suppose this relevant either but on the ProTrack KJ2 in the dead of night all I hear when saving is a tick tick at one second intervals!!
I will check both mine tonight (kj4 and kj3). Pacific time here
Thanks Jvthorsley,
Sounds like it supposed to do that then, though mine pulses about 3 seconds on 1 second off of bursts & then shorts the relay so on all the time after - does not appear to be causing any issues in use....
I am going to replace the reed relay with a solid state one as sick of it now & don't understand why it's doing it!
On another subject - I noticed that when connected to Workstation diagnostics the units'serial number appears on the diagnostic screen. Where does it get this serial number as the flash is from a different serial numbered unit?
Is it stored on the USB card or somewhere else? Just a bit puzzled as to how it new this?
Cheers,
Mark...
Hi Trademark
I did mention something like this to Curtis, Tech Support.
Even the Scanner used on the 3200S uses Relays.
The solid state Relays don't give the low resistance required across the contacts I'm told.
But in all other respects could be more reliable than chattering Relay contacts.
The relay in question is not used to switch a Tracker signal. It is used to enable the VPP line on the program chip so it is possible a solid state relay could work. It will be interesting to see if works for Mark.
Sorry I worked late In the field never made it back to the shop
Ok, here it is, both kj3 and kj4 when store button is pressed I hear a couplle series of multiple cliking sounds, then at the end 2 or 3 beeps.
On the kj3 the clicking sounds is a lot quiter, I had to turn off its fan to hear it. I figure it's because of meletery grade (better) component....
Great Al1234 - thanks for checking, that confirms it is supposed to 'pulse' when saving, so no issues there...
I will order a Solid State Relay from RS when I have enough things to order at once - it's working okay at present with the relay stuck closed.
Would be interested in buying a matching scanner (in any condition) if anyone has one for sale?
Would be extremely usefull for testing / comparing IC's....
Cheers,
Mark...
Hi
Plenty of ProTrack Scanners come on EBay but be prepared to have to change a lot of faulty Relays.
Huntron Workstation Diagnostics will tell which ones to replace.
Farnell & RS stock them. Or Digi-Key & Mouser Stateside.
Tradmark, you are very welcome. you know I don't thing there is anything else wrong with the unit. enjoy it.
but I would be interested to see if it makes any difference when you change the relay.
I don't think scanner are easy to come by. I got lucky with 1 a little less than a year ago and am interested in a 2nd. I've not seen any on ebay or anywhere else.
pcb prices are so low I thought about making my own. but 128 relays are not cheap and when it comes to that stuff I am mostly talk..lol
Quote from: Al1234 on July 25, 2023, 12:45:29 PMpcb prices are so low I thought about making my own. but 128 relays are not cheap and when it comes to that stuff I am mostly talk..lol
This is why test equipment is so expensive. The Tracker 3200S has 256 relays for the scanner section alone!
I have seen the Scanners on EBay not so long ago.
And much to my surprise someone in Florida selling the USB Adaptor cards for ProTrack KJ1& 2.
Quote from: jvthorsley on July 25, 2023, 02:31:57 PMI have seen the Scanners on EBay not so long ago.
And much to my surprise someone in Florida selling the USB Adaptor cards for ProTrack KJ1& 2.
I have seen the USB card but not the scanner for ProTrack. there are a couple of cable scanner but not for ProTrack. if you see them let me know please. I am in your emails.
Quote from: admin on July 25, 2023, 02:03:36 PMThis is why test equipment is so expensive. The Tracker 3200S has 256 relays for the scanner section alone!
when I thought it would help some issue to go over all the solder joint on the scanner, while doing it I seriously considered quiting electronics repair and diagnostic. it left a bad taste.... this got to be automated
11K for the 3200S and the workstation software! I think is a good deal.
Hi jvthorsley,
I've been looking but nothing as yet...
Would prefer one with faults as otherwize there is no challenge! + should be a bit cheaper...
Yes, I noticed a USB card on there.
Cheers,
Mark...
Hi Al1234,
You are lucky to find one I think....
I will keep an eye out.
Cheers,
Mark...
Hi Ai1234,
Yes, I am certainly enjoying it & have made some pretty patterns on it to demonstrate the superior definition on a CRT as opposed to a 'digital' or LCD screen! Sometimes using the right thing for the purpose should outweigh popular trends.
It makes a pretty flower across pin's 2 & 14 on a 7404 logic chip that reminds me of some of the images in Jerobeam Fendersons' Oscilloscope music, as can be seen, (Look on Google to download his scope music as interesting)...
The trace on the Workstation software is a squiggly mess compared to the CRT trace - which demonstrates why I would prefer the older units with CRT over an LCD one, it's simply just better at the task.
Have Fun!
Mark...
Testing with Vcc as the common reference will sometimes result in unstable signatures when compared to using ground especially with CMOS devices.
I only did this to demonstrate how a CRT can show more fine detail.
I just used pins that gave me a nice detailed trace, not an actual test as such....
I must admit that when using a Tracker manually I prefer a CRT as well. ;D
Hi All,
Well the Omron G3VM-61VYT(TR) solid state relays have turned up.
I will fit one (with appropriate ballast resistor) in the next few days & let you know the outcome.
Cheers,
Mark...
Hi All,
Fitted the solid state MOS-FET relay (see pictured), & all is well now.
Nice pulse waveform on pin#1 of the PROM now & it switches the 12V off properly so power glitches etc. should not cause any errors being written to the PROM.
Still wish I could explain why all reed relays fitted stuck closed here - a mystery!
Cheers,
Mark...
Interesting solution. Glad that it works.